I've recently created the page for The War Doctor + and was a bit confused by the categorization of The War Doctor. According to the wiki he is classified as 11th era.
According to DWLegacy Wiki:Rules for categorization by era this is as it should be, but especially with planned upcoming characters like Cinder, I'm not sure that classification rule is really great. I would like to have War era and add Cinder to that (also I don't see a reason for Alice/Gabby not being part of 11th/10th era's, other than that the current rules say so).
So anyone else thoughts about the current era classification and whether we should change it (especially in regards to non-TV sources)
Edit: mh, I just now have seen that the Policy page specify to start discussion on DWLegacy Wiki talk:Rules for categorization by era. I don't mind moving this if that is better (though I prefer discussion in forums to the way the talk page works personally)
Your suggestion makes sense, I don't think it's a problem. As for Alice and Gabby I don't see it as a problem too, maybe we could have them both in the Era section as well as the comics section. I guess we should only leave characters without Era categorization if they are spin-off characters who have never met or interacted with any Doctor. And, in the case of original characters from the TV Show or from televised spin-offs, we should stick only with the incarnations of the Doctor they met on-screen (e. g. if a 10th Doctor TV companion had an adventure with the 11th Doctor in a comic book).
Also, what do you think of Martha being part of the Torchwood category? Even though she appeared in a few episodes I think it's a bit confusing. We should have a rule for characters appearing in spin-offs/other media, although we could allow some exceptions for characters who play a major part in said spin-off, like Jack in Torchwood and Sarah Jane in SJA. Either that or we rule them out completely.
But if we do some sort of expanded universe category, it doesn't solve the problem of grouping characters to their Doctors.
Yes we could solve that by mirroring the era-classification for different types of media, but that doesn't seem like a good solution to me, since there would be all sort of different medias (Big Finish Audio, books, comics, maybe even different types of comics?). Also in this case imo we should rename the category, because the name "11th Doctor era" doesn't imply that it is related to the TV show.
Especially since there is ingame information (Notable Associates) that establish that character X has a relation with a Doctor X (yes, sometimes it is a bit wobbly, like with War Doctor. Quite a few characters only interacted with him during Day of the Doctor).
I don't see a reason why we should say "this is TV and we care about which Doctor it is related, while this isn't TV, so it is in some sort catch all category".
I would propose to be more liberal (not so TV-centered) with that classification (kinda equal rights for all medias), because that it was the game itself does. Either by just allowing all sorts of media, or stick to the ingame Information we have (so determining era's with help of the notable associates).
To Torchwood: I don't see the problem with Martha Jones being part of Torchwood. She played a part in Torchwood that was more important than that of many characters that were only in one DW-episode, yet are classified along era's like other characters. (Though one problem I noticed that Jack dropped off during adding Jack+. That is imo the main reason it looks weird...)
Well, if we treat all medias equally it might get quite messy. Some of them are usually considered more canonical than others. For example: Lady Christina and Ian and Barbara met the 11th Doctor in the IDW and DWM comics (here and here if you're curious), so does that mean they should be part of the 11th Doctor category? Not to mention short stories and multi-Doctor specials...
I guess the most practical choice would be to go for in-game info, even though there are a few hiccups here and there (like the War Doctor and the Brigadier).
I'm not that familiar with the Whoniverse outside of TV/Titan Comics myself, but from visiting w:c:Tardis I know it's messy ;).
So I would be totally fine to switch to ingame information since it allows us to completely dodge the "which medium is relevant or not"-question.
Since there are currently some medium related categories (at least for the Comic characters), it would then be best to either scrap those categories (since they don't relate to ingame content) or to add more categories (for TV characters, book characters, ...), with getting rid of them imo the better option (since as Trenzalore456 said the Whoniverse is quite messy, and probably a lot of characters appear in a lot of mediums).
This would leave Category:Torchwood in a kinda awkward spot, too (because it basically doesn't really originate from ingame content either), but one problem after another. (Maybe getting rid of the category would be the "safest" option, although as a huge Torchwood-fan, I really like it. :/)
To the War Doctor-hiccup: Since Doctor's are a special case anyway, we basically need to say "A doctor is part of his own era, despite not being his own notable associate". So we could without problem say "A doctor is only part of his own era, ...". (If that is the hiccup you mean.)
To the Brigadier-hiccup: I don't see a problem here. Even now there is Category:All eras which currently only has The TARDIS. We could just redefine (and probably rename) it to say that it isn't a strict all.
The only cases it is awkward if the ingame information makes only little sense (like mentioned in the In-Game Typos-Thread, e.g. Special Agent Amy Pond and Lorna Bucket both listing The Doctor). But this is a change we don't need to do now, so we can wait to see if those get fix in the near future first, should we want to change the era classification (which I think we should do).
What if instead of using categories named like "10th Doctor's Era", we had "Allies of the 10th Doctor"? It would make this less confusing and TV-based. And we could have "Allies of all Doctors" for the TARDIS and the Brigadier, and "Allies from Torchwood", "Allies from TItan Comics" and "Allies from Big Finish" for spin-off characters who never met the Doctor.
edit: Maybe not "Allies of all Doctors", since they might not have actually met all of them. "Allies of The Doctor" could be better, but it could enter in conflict with the other categories (after all, theorically, they are all allies of the Doctor). We need a solution for that
Yeah, as Alpha I'm not sold on the "Media Category"-thing. For example if we have a "Titan Comics" or "Big Finish" Category, which characters should be in it? I can't really tell a reason why characters which are associated with a Doctor should be excluded, and including all characters open a can of worms which imo doesn't need to be opened.
I really like a redefinition/(possible rename) of eras, though.
How would be "Allies associated with the (Xth) Doctor"? That way we have an even stronger link to the notable associates lists. Or even "Notable Associates of the (Xth) Doctor". That would basically exclude the Doctor in question from this category, but I would be fine with that. (Or we say that a Doctor is associated with himself, which seems weird ;) )
I also don't think that differentiating between "the Xth Doctor" and "The Doctor" is problematic, since the game does it, too.
I'm all up for it (I wanted to "bump" this myself in the near future ;) ).
So things to do:
Rename the categories on pages to "Associates with the Xth Doctor"/"Associates with the Doctor". I think we should have the same capitalization for "the" on all these categories. If you want "The Doctor", I have no problems with that, as long as we also do "The Xth Doctor".
Not sure what to do with Category:Torchwood. Possibly it is best to just delete it for now until we have a better definition (because right now it doesn't really make sense to include Torchwood but exclude Titan Comics if they would follow the same rules).. Done
If no one is against it I will start soonish with that (at least the part I can do. Without admin rights I can't delete stuff. I'm kinda interested in trying out AWB in the future, so I would most likely with the category rename thing.)
I'm not sure about the capitalization, I think we should have just "The Doctor" capitalized, since it means the character of The Doctor itself. But for now it's better to leave all without capitalization then.
I'd start it now but I think it's better to leave most of the rework to Alpha and other admins using AWB, so what about for now you and me can start by rewriting the rules and deleting some categories? You can begin and then I'll check if it needs any changes.
I was thinking that maybe we could have a category for non-TV characters like "Original comic characters" or "Original characters from comic books" but it could get confusing/be too much information
The problem with "Original comic characters" (or Torchwood or whatever else) is that it just brings in the problems we have solved with this changes (especially potential fuzziness regarding some characters). Unless the game does it in some way (for example a future "Titan Comic Season", which would mark characters as part of that season) I think it is best for us to get rid of that classification axis - especially since the game doesn't differentiate characters along it and treats the whole Whoniverse as one big family (or at least for now I have that feeling).
On capitalization: w:tardis:The Doctor doesn't capitalize "the Doctor". The best argument for capitalization imo would be that "The Xth Doctor" characters seem to be capitalized (although that is hard to tell), but overall a think lower case looks better.
One thing: I think that "Associates of the (Xth) Doctor" looks better than "Allies associated with the (Xth) Doctor", but if you/others think the second is better I'm fine with it (and it was the wording established here).
And I have made a draft for the new policy (it is located in my userspace, but if you want to change something before moving it, feel free to edit it). The redlinks inside the draft are for the new category pages that will be needed. They will replace Category:Allies by series and era and its subcategories.
Seems fine to me, I'll update the policy. The Brigadier case is a bit weird, but I don't think that's a problem. I'll move it to the policy and change it if I find any odd occurrences. I guess we could already start adding some categories for now once the rules are layed out
Don't see a problem with Lorna and Amy, we have to stick with in-game info even if it's a typo, also they might change it later.
For the other characters we could have a list of allies without association, although that list would also have to include all the Doctors except for War, Ten and Eleven. Either that or we rule out all Doctors (including Mad Man with a Box) and have a companion-only categorization, which would make sense too.
I would say it would be fine to just exclude Doctor's from a non-association list without excluding them from the associates.
If you think that we shouldn't do that, I have to say that the option to have nearly all Doctors in the "not associated with the Doctor" category sounds stupid to me. In that case I would prefer to not add this category (since I don't want it because it is a good definition, but because I know no way to generate that list automatically and think that people might be interested in it).